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Feature #16094

Have simplified and traditional Chinese in the list of languages in Tails Greeter

Added by sajolida 7 months ago. Updated about 2 months ago.

Status:
Confirmed
Priority:
Normal
Assignee:
-
Category:
Internationalization
Target version:
-
Start date:
11/04/2018
Due date:
% Done:

0%

QA Check:
Feature Branch:
Type of work:
Code
Blueprint:
Starter:
Affected tool:
Greeter

Description

Right now we have instead:

  • Chinese, Singapore (language name untranslated)
  • Chinese, China
  • Chinese, Taiwan
  • Chinese, Hong Kong

Which correspond to spoken local dialects but lack information about the writing script, either simplified or traditional.

Simplified Chinese was invented in mainland China and consist in a simplification of the writing of traditional Chinese (independently from how it is spoken).

  • People with basic literacy in mainland China are not able to read the more complex traditional Chinese characters.
  • People in Taiwan are not taught simplified Chinese in school and are not using it in their daily life on the island.

Someone from Taiwan told me that, instead of the 4 options that we currently have, we should instead have 2:

  • 1 for simplified Chinese
  • 1 for traditional Chinese

Which are different scripts for the same Chinese (Mandarin) language.

They should be written under the category "中文" (we currently have a different name for our Chinese category).

windows-10-download.png View (34.1 KB) sajolida, 03/21/2019 03:39 PM


Related issues

Related to Tails - Feature #14544: Spend software developer time on smallish UX improvements In Progress 08/31/2018
Related to Tails - Bug #16093: Remove untranslated Chinese languages from Tails Greeter Confirmed 11/04/2018

History

#1 Updated by sajolida 7 months ago

  • Related to Feature #14544: Spend software developer time on smallish UX improvements added

#2 Updated by sajolida 7 months ago

  • Related to Bug #16093: Remove untranslated Chinese languages from Tails Greeter added

#3 Updated by intrigeri 2 months ago

One question, first, that might help assessing the priority of this ticket: isn't the name of these languages, in the Greeter, displayed using the preferred script for the corresponding locale? It seems to me that "Chinese - China" is displayed as "汉语" (which is simplified Chinese for "the Chinese language"). And I see that "Chinese - Taiwan" is displayed differently, presumably in traditional Chinese. I would hope this helps users pick simplified vs. traditional, even if we don't spell out "this is simplified Chinese" vs. "this is traditional Chinese": the mere fact the language name is written in a given script suggests which script will be used to display the desktop if one selects that language, no?

Someone from Taiwan told me that, instead of the 4 options that we currently have, we should instead have 2:

  • 1 for simplified Chinese
  • 1 for traditional Chinese

The problem with this proposal is that our "language" option maps to a locale = a language and a territory. So what locale would each of this option map to? I'm concerned that any choice we make — e.g. we could map simplified Chinese to zh_CN and traditional Chinese to zh_TW — has the potential to make a subset of the affected users unhappy. Not providing options for Hong Kong and Singapore is perhaps sensitive. Now, even if they used the same script, I don't know how much of a noticeable difference it makes to run the Desktop in, say, zh_HK compared to zh_CN. If it's not noticeable, I guess most users won't care. If it's noticeable, we might open a deep can of worms. Maybe I'm overly scared.

They should be written under the category "中文" (we currently have a different name for our Chinese category).

The two options are like this:

I can think of good arguments in favour of either of those and I have no strong preference.

Be it wrt. the language (= language + territory) or the category title, given the sensitive political context, acting based upon the suggestion of one single individual, who's from one of the parties in conflict, feels a bit tricky. So I suggest we do the same as more popular IT systems, e.g. Android or Windows.

#4 Updated by sajolida 2 months ago

Isn't the name of these languages, in the Greeter, displayed using the preferred script for the corresponding locale?

That's my understanding as well.

Note that both scripts (eg. China and Taiwan) are under the same
foldable section (Chinese) which is displayed in simplified Chinese.

If someone can only read traditional Chinese, they might not find Taiwan
in the Chinese submenu.

Also note that my Taiwanese user was coming back from trying "Chinese,
mandarin" (without any Chinese script, #16093) way up the language list,
so maybe his reaction was influenced by this first bad experience :)

So I suggest we do the same as more popular IT systems, e.g. Android or Windows.

Here is what Windows does:

  • When configuring the language of Windows 7, you get more options for
    the territories (eg. Français (Suisse)) and the Chinese options are the
    following (in the language of your Windows session):
    • Chinois (simplifié, République populaire de Chine)
    • Chinois (simplifié, Singapour)
    • Chinois (traditionnel, Hong Kong R.A.S.)
    • Chinois (traditionnel, Macao R.A.S.)
    • Chinois (traditionnel, Taiwan)

I think we should do something similar: at least have simplified and
traditional Chinese in 2 different submenus and maybe remove all
submenus, if we can, after #16095.

#5 Updated by sajolida 2 months ago

Right now we have 3 Chinese locales in our PO files:

  • zh_CN: 97% translated, that would be "Chinese (China)" in simplified script
  • zh_HK: 39% translated, that would be "Chinese (Hong-Kong)" in traditional script
  • zh_TW: 39% translated, that would be "Chinese (Taiwan)" in traditional script

#6 Updated by intrigeri 2 months ago

Note that both scripts (eg. China and Taiwan) are under the same foldable section (Chinese) which is displayed in simplified Chinese.
If someone can only read traditional Chinese, they might not find Taiwan in the Chinese submenu.

Good point. I hadn't noticed that because I never scroll through this looong list: I always type the first few letters of the language I'm looking for, and search results appear unfolded.

Also note that my Taiwanese user was coming back from trying "Chinese, mandarin" (without any Chinese script, #16093) way up the language list, so maybe his reaction was influenced by this first bad experience :)

Right. If we at least removed these buggy ones for the (top of the) list, perhaps your tester would have not found it so quickly, and resorted to search, which expands the foldable section.

So I suggest we do the same as more popular IT systems, e.g. Android or Windows.

Here is what Windows does:

OK, so I assume that either they ask for the territory later on, or they detect it via GeoIP, both of which have low risk of causing political trouble.

I think we should do something similar: at least have simplified and traditional Chinese in 2 different submenus

What do you mean with "in 2 different submenus"? Two top-level list entries, just like Uzbek? Or two entries inside a foldable section? (and then how would that foldable section be called?) Or something else?

At this point, my proposal would be to do:

  • Chinese (simplified)
    • Chinese (simplified, China)
    • Chinese (simplified, Singapore)
  • Chinese (traditional)
    • Chinese (traditional, Hong Kong)
    • Chinese (traditional, Taiwan)

This avoids all the politically sensitive problems I was talking about earlier, just like Windows 7 does, and presumably like Windows 10 does (in a different way that we can't copy).

#7 Updated by sajolida about 2 months ago

OK, so I assume that either they ask for the territory later on, or they detect it via GeoIP, both of which have low risk of causing political trouble.

Yes, my guess is that from the French download for example, you can then change your territory when installing.

Today I had an installed Windows 10 at hand. You can also go into the language settings and add a new language. Then the list displayed all languages and territories for which you can download a "language pack". The list is flat, with no submenus, like I described in Windows 7.

At this point, my proposal would be to do:

  • Chinese (simplified)
    • Chinese (simplified, China)
    • Chinese (simplified, Singapore)
  • Chinese (traditional)
    • Chinese (traditional, Hong Kong)
    • Chinese (traditional, Taiwan)

Yes, like this!

After #16095 we might realize that the list is small enough to be displayed without submenus, like Windows 10 does. But we're not there yet and we should do your proposal.

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